Satire, Sarcasm, Hypocrisy

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Yah sure! the idea (practical situation) we are saying here both applies to all, be it on the middle income tax bracket or within the lowest bracket. For those from lowest bracket, we are sure that they see the need to support themselves plus anybody else which we conclude it due to poverty. And those from the middle or even higher (if there are) is maybe assumed as just "lifestyle", maybe just a hobby or just an influence of circle of friends and anyway it is their free will and decision. However, in reality we are not really sure unless we have to research their individual lile history and present situation.

Hypocrisy Part 1:
Well, let us discuss a little bit about hypocritical providers and hypocritical clients...
Sometimes when I was simply reading posts, blogs, and articles here I found statements about prostitution as follows:
"It is a normal business", (that is why it must be legalised).
Often hobbyists, and less often providers have posted such a statement, I do not want to write "opinion". Furthermore -- if I remember well -- then it has been members from countries where prostitution is illegal, always. This is interesting, isn't it! Something what is illegal is a normal business for these guys. Citizens of countries where prostitution is legal normally do not see it as a "normal business", at all, because a profession where providers offer services under special conditions is not "normal", even if it is legal.

Is this normal?
Women and girls provide the following services:
Being penetrated orally, anally, and vaginally with penises, fingers, fists, and objects, including but not limited to, bottles, brushes, dildos, guns and/or animals;
Being bound and gagged, tied with ropes and/or chains, burned with cigarettes, or hung from beams or trees;
Being photographed or filmed performing these acts.

Workplace:
Job-related activities are performed in the following locations: in an apartment, a hotel, a "massage parlour," car, doorway, hallway, street, executive suite, fraternity house, convention, bar, public toilet, public park, alleyway, military base, on a stage, in a glass booth.

Furthermore it is said prostitution is the oldest business on earth. Nice to say and to hear, but useless for a debate about a legalisation.

Facing all these points isn't this is hypocritical and opportunistic? Just good enough for a subculture which has no link to reality.

Hmmm...I instantly have to imagine those sexual positions and manners you've pictured with girls. I can not even imagine some of it since I've not done it all my life. LOL

Okay, if I may request that we have to have common understanding of Terms first; what do you mean by " Normal Business" and "Subculture" when you used them?
This will facilitate discussions since I will be following your definition whenever these words are used or mentioned. Is it okay with you?
Lastly, what would be the "desired objective" of our discussion? Or what are we really looking for to "come out" in this discussions relative to the topic satire and hypocrisy?

We would really love this!

Well Dohm, it is not about you and me, when we refer to the mentioned "positions and manners". ;)

Coming back to your questions...
"Normal business"
Well, I have red this expression several times here, and at other places. I can give a definition for us.
Let us say it is a generally accepted business/profession someone is doing to earn his life and to feed a family. :)
A business or profession children intend to study and to do, when they are adult.

Definition for Subculture:
"A social group within a national culture that has distinctive patterns of behaviour and beliefs."

I started this thread after I read some posts in the forum, for ex. about legalisation of prostitution, and about the problems escorts face in the USA.
Some arguments in favour of a legalisation have been simply "flat", or simply poor in my opinion. Finally we should be aware that agreements here will not help in real life to convince persons "outside" of our subculture. In my declared home country prostitution is legal. This was the result of a development, from which other countries are far away, not only because of politicians and institutions. Let me say, big mouth guys at home and opportunistic guys in public will not change anything. ;) This fact and some other points are often ironic, sarcastic, and hypocritical.

Allow me to share my personal opinios on your comments Luli...

1. On the "Normal Business" term you've mentioned, I am a bit confused with men hobbyist who uses this term as an excuse or to ignore the issue of prostitution legalization in their country. Maybe they don't understand or have different meaning of the term with yours. For smart men would not want to use this I suppose relative to the issue.

2. For escorts who uses this term, I would clearly understand them. This has been observed with prostitutes in every subcultures especially in my country. For the saying goes "a mango tree naturally bears a mango fruit and hardly an apple". At least they are opening a window of reality in them thus, they are viewed as non hypocrites on this aspect.

3. "Big mouthed guys at home and opportunistic guys in public will not change anything; these facts are sarcastic and hypocritical". Agree! Leaders or authorities who circumvent the issue when asked, and proceed to feign the public are genuine hypocrites.

4. For countries who have not yet legalized prostitution, so many reasons have already been mentioned here. Foremost is the influence of the church, external political influence and national culture. All is true and no medium term solution for that unless enexpected turn of events happens. When the USA as superpower and Vatican churches using morality would change their stand and initiate actions on the issue can influence many countries. I am not saying though that all the people in this countries (where prostituion is illegal) are considered hypocrites. No, far from it. They just have reasons and let's leave them what they want.

5. People using morality as reason for not legalizing prostitution are not all hypocrites. We must be clear with this. Maybe some are coz they only uses this to hide their own skin but many trusted people really see morality as the main reason. And I believe firmly that prostitution is immoral. I go with escorts, thereby I'm commiting immorality..but not qualified as hypocrisy anyway. In my country, maybe morality has just overtaken practicality due to the religiousness of the Filipinos. And majority of the populace sees it as not bad at all..

6. You've written, "What does it mean for a country to solve povery problems by making young girls to become prostitutes? Sacrifice a young woman to support the clan financially?"

Luli, I beg to disagree with you here. This is too assumptuous and conclusive! A country does not make girls become prostitutes to solve poverty. No country would do this. It is the girl herself does, with her own decision. This will only be true when she was kidnapped by the authorities and forced to do so in "sex slave houses" run by the gov't. for income purposes. The act of entering into prostitution by any reason does not even constitute hypocrisy. Hiding our profession or pretending not to be is a different thing.

7. Legalization of prostitution in countries where it is illegal will still go a long way, no matter what we say in this forum, I believe. Even we can prove to them that their actions are indeed sarcastic and hypocritical, or even prostitutes will multiply. Countries have their own ways of making and enforcing their laws anyway.

I see in this post some of you like to throw around the word "normal" alot. Who decides what is normal? normal to you or your culture may be very different from another. Normal on one side of a city maybe different then another side. Is todays normal tomorrows normal?

you using a very subjective word to base an argument or therory on.

many time a social majority decide normal.....so if you in a room full of retards who is normal then?

Poor copuntries do not need to make it legal.

Trust me in poor countries if you good looking and nice body you are expected to fuck to keep your job. Dont even try say it not true, I have had other jobs so I know what I saying. if you want to change laws than change laws liek western country have. If a owner or company expected sex from girls in the USA you can sue. If you want to make it different than stop this. Why do I want sex some man I hate to keep my job when I can sex who I want and make more?

making it legal here would just be worse cause then you will have sex AGAIN who they tell you and how they tell you......YOU THINK THAT BETTER? Making in legal here would just make it more difficult for a girl to be independent and sex of her choice. IS THAT WHAT YOU MEN WANT?........A GIRL WHO SMILES BUT UNDERNESTH WANTS TO DIE CAUSE SHE HAS TO FUCK YOU? this already how it is in many bar and massage and if you make it legal it is all there will be....... we just lose right of choice.

Thank you Luli, as if I'm getting clear what we are trying to press out here on the issue you've started "Satire, Sarcasm and Hypocricy". It even encouraged me to do a little bit readings of all the posts and other materials to come to this point! LOL

To me, I have to express all available ideas or opinions (which I thought) using appropriate manner or conduct at the time I'm writing with no reservations.

On the issue of countries influencing girls to go to prostitution, I may agree with you partly on the "influence issue" only, especially for the countries you've specifically mentioned with socialistic or something dictatorial (if I got it rght) using somewhat deceitful approach. They say to the girl go for R&R and anything with lots of oppurtunity offers but will soon end up in prostitution. But I still have to argue with you on the act itself. In a democratic country for that case, the girl still decides whether to go or not, using deceit or influencial force but the authorities can not force her if she decides on the opposite. Afterall, she has families and friends to give her advices or guidance! A girl away from the family and has rebelleous instinct to the family advices, is a different story.

We,re really enjoying here and learning a lot from all of the members opinions.

Related to the point of hypocrisy I would like to add a comment, too.

'The Sex Sector: The economic and social bases of prostitution in Southeast Asia’ edited by Lin Lean Lim, released by the International Labour Office, Geneva, in 1998, revealed that sex sector accounts between 2 to 14 per cent of the GDP of Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines and Thailand. Those who think city of ‘Sodom’ must be destroyed for erosion of ‘values’ should reflect on the fact that millions find employment in the sex-sector and remit earnings to their family in some remote village.

Except for a few transvestites and male prostitutes, an overwhelming majority of sex-workers are women. Some feminists consider prostitution an exploitation of women by the male dominated patriarchal society. Another feminist view holds it as a valid choice of profession for a woman as long as they are not forced to prostitute.

Prostitution is legitimate business in The Netherlands and Germany and worthy of a death sentence in some Islamic countries. Selling sex is allowed but buying sex is a crime in some states. British laws do not prohibit prostitution but they do not allow soliciting.

Five street-walkers (prostitutes) were murdered in Ipswich, England between October and December 2006. Minette Marrin, in her article ‘Now end the hypocrisy on prostitution’ published in the Times, wrote, “The laws against prostitution should be revised, in the name of humanity, and also in the name of more freedom and less government. Currently prostitution is not illegal but soliciting, procuring and brothel keeping are. This is absurd and a perfect illustration of our hypocritical national confusion.”

President Bush signed a National Security Presidential Directive in 2003 saying prostitution and related activities were “inherently harmful and dehumanizing”. In April 2007, Randal Tobias of USAID who oversaw the policy of requiring an anti-prostitution loyalty oath from anti-aids groups, resigned after admitting he frequented prostitutes. “A singer in an elite Vatican choir and a jailed Italian public works executive who served as a papal usher were let go by the Vatican this week amid allegations that they were involved in what prosecutors believe was an organized network of gay prostitution.” (New York Times, March 4, 2010). Hypocrisy is the law in matters of sex.

Monogamy is complemented by adultery. In Iran, adultery is punished by stoning to death but prostitution is legalized as temporary marriage (Muta’a). A license for a temporary marriage ranging between one hour to 99 years could be obtained after payment of fees to the government. Patricia Treble posted on Macleans.ca that President Ahmedinejad has been trying to make temporary marriage easier for men by exempting them from the requirement to produce permission from their first wife.

A liberal intellectual of Pakistani origin posted Macleans link on facebook with the following comment: "Prostitution in the name of Islam, not just in Iran and Egypt, but right here on the campuses of UofT, York and Ryerson "Sister, can I marry your for an hour and & 100/-"

Let me come up with the following arguments:

1) Most women find jobs by soliciting sex.

2) The number of prostitutes is so high that you can't really count.

It is all right for corporations to use a woman’s sexy image and make huge profits but a woman who decides to sell her own stuff is seen with contempt. The expression ‘women don’t have to be as ashamed of themselves now’ aptly describes the degree of gender equality reached in developed countries. Masturbation and hetero-sexuality is promoted among boys but double-standard stigmatizes those same sexual behaviours in women. Gender equality threatens man into demeaning woman for the same greed of sex he enjoys. They look at all women as potential prostitutes while prostitution itself is placed worse than corruption, stealing even murder, in their mind.

The number of sex-workers in Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia was estimated between 0.25% and 1.25% of the total female population in the ILO report of 1998.

In under-developed countries, sharing of space between man and woman in the city is frowned upon by villagers who derive morality from family and inheritance. Pursuit of a sexually satisfying life is considered ignoble. I am not sure why they circumcise boys but the aim of reducing sex-drive is one reason for female circumcision.

As described in the ILO report on sex-trade, prostitution provides livelihood where economy does not offer any other alternatives. “The sex sector is not recognized as an economic sector in official statistics, development plans or government budgets”, the report highlights. Millions could die of hunger and disease in Pakistan. Famine and drought produce conditions where human trafficking and child prostitution is perpetrated by criminals who exploit and enslave for profit with a promise of one meal. A collective effort to protect from trafficking, slavery and child-prostitution could mitigate some harmful effects.

Thank you for the nice sharing Toniw!

I have to agree with you that in under-developed or even some developing countries have to frowned with man and woman sharing space in a village due to morality inheritance. Add it, prostitution provides livelihood where countries can't provide alternatives and
the number of prostitutes by "soliciting sex" in the countries mentioned by you (where prostitution is illegal) is so high that we can't really count.

The ILO report you've mentioned somehow presented a picture of the situation of prostitution in the countries mentioned. However I'm not sure if the statistics in those countries are really reflective of the real figures. In a country (like my country) where prostitution is illegal, we could hardly come up with realistic figures on prostitution. I was once involved in indirect surveys of such in our region of my country to support our "economic study" pertaining to the region but we failed to get the real or near figures we suspect due to the incooperation of the personalities and parties involved. For who would want to be identified as prostitute in a country where such is illegal anyway? And to be frowned or outcasted by villagers or community with the strong issue of morality in the national and subcultures?

With that I guess I understand the difficulty of whatever national government intervening endeavors relative to the issue of prostitution in countries where prostitution is illegal. But in local levels like cities or municipalities who have independence through their Local Government Codes, can do something at their own levels with their own political will if they think it could be helpful or harmful to them but again, with the approval of the majority of the moralistic population or subcultures.